Thanks so much for you prompt and kind responses. I feel welcome in your group. If I had to do this over again perhaps I would have chosen the softer wood to fashion the pin block. No matter it is in the harp now. All these great respones prompt even more questions.
The replies have me leaning towards Nicks response and his expertise on Delignit (glued steel). I did drill out from some of the scrap delignet lumber and tried to drive a 2/0 pin in. It was very tight. I can move it but my fear is more in driving it to it rest spot.
I think I will order a .272 drill and give it another go.
I have already ordered and received the 2 1\4" pins.
Do you think i should reconsider this as well? That was the size that came out of the piano.
There is a total of 30 large counter sunk screws that I have drilled out for and i have most of them in place.
My final question on this list would be in finding centers coming through the bushings into the pin block. I assume I estimate the 5 degrees back and drill through the bushings making a shallow hole in the pin block and then remove the block and setup to do the drilling on a drill press. Is this the norm?
Thanks again !.
Emerson M.Torrey
Director of Information Technology
emerson at diprete-eng.com.
DiPrete Engineering
Moving Engineering Forward
Two Stafford Court Cranston, RI 02920
tel 401-943-1000 fax 401-464-6006 www.DiPrete-Eng.com
ü Please consider the environment before printing this em
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From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of pianotech-request at ptg.org [pianotech-request at ptg.org]
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 1:53 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: pianotech Digest, Vol 6, Issue 83
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Drilling a pinblock (Nick Gravagne)
2. Does V S Profelt work in reverse? (reggaepass at aol.com)
3. Recording session (Allan)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:07:09 -0700
From: "Nick Gravagne" <gravagnegang at att.net>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Drilling a pinblock
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
Message-ID: <mailman.358.1239040388.22195.pianotech_ptg.org at ptg.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Emerson,
Due to its high density, pressurized construction, and number of glue
joints, the suggested bit size for Delignit and Falconwood pinblocks is the
letter I (that is, capital I as in Island). The decimal size is 0.272";
anything smaller relative to 2/0 pins will cause a higher than necessary
tuning pin torque IMO. Set your drill press speed to about 1000 rpms give
or take a bit, depending on how your pulleys and belts combine.
Since other well-intentioned posts have offered different bit sizes ranging
from 0.257" on up to my suggested 0.272" you may be understandably confused.
FWIW, I have used Delignit almost exclusively for 30 years. So, to satisfy
yourself (and I must conclude that you have some familiarity with turning
pins in a pinblock and tuning?), try the different bits in Delignit scrap,
drive in some 2/0 by 2-3/8" pins (allow for plate thickness and a bit more)
test with a tuning hammer and choose what you like. In my experience the
smaller bits, such as the 0.257, and 0.261 are more suitable for high
quality maple blocks and other similar varieties.
Delignit and Falconwood exist in a density class of their own. It is not my
practice to drill in two passes using a smaller bit to start. Others are
convinced of the superiority of this practice. Again, make some tests and
satisfy yourself. Remember that the initial torque will usually be higher
than it will be later on. But in my experience, torque values in
high-density blocks change little compared to less dense stuff. Delignit
blocks I have installed thirty years ago still tune like champs.
Set up your shop vac or other suction machine to remove the chips during
drilling. Set the suction tube attachment (or whatever) as close to the bit
as is practicable. You should see most of the chips going airborne into the
hose/tube. Air being sucked in the area of the bit will also move across the
spinning bit and will keep the bit cool enough for a consistent, non-burning
operation.
As has been suggested, try out the feed (speed of drilling the hole) in some
Delignit scrap, but start out with about 4 or 5 seconds to drill through to
the bottom. If you feel the block resisting your feed rate back off until
your feel a smooth and continuous sensation. If an unhindered feed rate
takes longer than 6 seconds you may need more rpms (or else your bit isn't
sharp enough). By increasing and decreasing the feed rate thusly, you will
find the right feed rate for your bit and your spindle rpms. You MUST have a
sharp bit or you will ruin the job.
Get a new letter I bit to try out. The best type is a fast-spiral,
wide-flute bit as offered by piano supply companies; or do an online search
for same. Fast spiral drills are used in relatively high feed rate
applications under relatively low spindle speeds, and where removal of a
large volume of material is required in the shortest amount of time. Be sure
to drill the holes at the lean-back angle as you find in the original block.
However, if you find that angle to be much greater or less than 85 degrees,
a good rule of thumb is to use the 85 degrees (sometimes referred to as 5
degrees ----- i.e., 90 - 5 = 85 degrees). The pin angle has been a topic of
debate with experienced rebuilders, and strong positions have been taken for
and against absolutes, or for and against changing the angle in different
sections of the scale, but if you follow this plan you will be well in the
ballpark.
It is not required to glue the block in, but make sure it is securely
screwed in with at least 1 large counter-sunk screw in the base and two such
screws in the treble.
Good luck.
Nick Gravagne, RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Member Society Manufacturing Engineers
Voice Mail 928-476-4143
_____
From: Emerson at diprete-eng.com
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 11:15:01 -0400
Subject: [pianotech] Drilling a Pin Block.
I must start by saying I am new to this list as well as new to rebuilding
piano's so please excuse my ignorance.
I am rebuilding a 5 ft. McPhail grand and have a couple of questions
regarding pin block drilling and installation.
The new pin block material is DELIGNIT PIN BLOCK material and seems to me to
be the hardest wood known to man.
I am curious if anyone out there has a particular speed setting for the
drill press and how different speeds affect the size of the hole. Currently
I am using #2 pins and a .266 drill. Another question would be do I need to
glue the block in? I don't believe it was glued previously.
Thanks
Emerson Torrey
_____
Windows
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Bruce Dornfeld
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:18 AM
To: pianotech
Subject: [pianotech] Drilling a pinblock
Back in the 1970s, when I got Falconwood pinblocks from Cliff Geers, it came
with a booklet about installation. Originally he was the only supplier of
this dense kind of pinblock in the US, if I recall. I do not know how the
density of the Falconwood differs from the Delignit. They recommended using
a .272" drill of the high helix variety. They also suggest speeds of 900 to
1000 r.p.m. I would also recommend buying a copy of the Piano Technicians
Journal Reprints: Pinblocks and Plates and searching this list's archives
for more ideas, there is plenty there!
Good luck,
Bruce Dornfeld, RPT
bdornfeld at earthlink.net
North Shore Chapter
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 13:15:31 -0400
From: reggaepass at aol.com
Subject: [pianotech] Does V S Profelt work in reverse?
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Message-ID: <8CB84F26CC084FC-1708-230 at MBLK-M37.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
List,
I am working on a twenty year old Baldwin R which has not been played much. ?The front rail key bushings were in various stages of too tight. ?The key pins are .145", so I?initially eased with a .147" straight broach in a rheostat controlled soldering iron (set to a setting used successfully on many previous outings). ?Barely made any difference at all. ?Stepped it up to the next larger size broach, .150". ?Things improved but just barely. ?I was not getting the slight but positive "knock" from side to side that I usually work for, but the keys were at least coming back up (!). ?I don't know if the bushing cloth is too thick, or too spongy, or if the mortise was somehow too small to begin with (if that is even a possibility), but I do not have great hopes for the keys remaining functional for long as some are already showing signs of needing to be eased again.
So my question is this: Has anyone used V S Profelt with appropriately sized cauls overnight as an effective fix for bushings that are too tight?
Thanks,
Alan Eder
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:53:07 -0400
From: "Allan" <allan at sutton.net>
Subject: [pianotech] Recording session
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
Message-ID: <20090406175306.D977E49B218 at smtprelay03.hostedemail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I am being hired to sit on a 3 day recording session for a professional trio
next week.
The piano will be a Yamaha C7 that I can have access to beforehand.
I am reading Under the Lid by Stephen.H Brady. I will try to attend the
concert they are giving the day before with the very same repertoire. I'm
thinking of going tune this piano the very best I can and record the result
in Tunelab so I feel confident on that aspect. Would they be asking for
A=442? Anything one of you can give advice?
Would any of you master tuners have a Tunelab file of a fine tuning for that
instrument that I can use to study?
Thank you for any input.
Allan Sutton
www.pianotechniquemontreal.com
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