Well, yes, I have been on many a lift gate over the years. Virtually all my experience is with swivel dollies, I have rarely seen a mover use anything else. I have done my own moving occasionally at times to and from customer's houses over the years. As a piano dealer for 7 years, I unloaded every new grand or vertical piano I received from Keyboard Carriage - usually myself and the KC driver; or myself, an employee, and the KC driver. The trucks always had lift gates. So I have a fair amount of experience doing this, although I do not consider myself a professional piano mover. I am not as skilled as them because I don't move pianos day in and day out (nor am I as young anymore!). And I have always used good people - I have been known to turn movers away who have been sent by someone else to pick up a valuable instrument. Watching them work, I decided I couldn't trust them and declined to allow them to take a piano. That's a very rare occurrence where I made the decision reluctantly (fixed wheel dollies had nothing to do with it). At one point as a dealer, I was hiring out almost a hundred moves a year. I'm not a mover, but I still have an eye and a brain, so I watch and learn. As for the number of men they use, most of the time it has been 2 men for pianos up to 7 foot. For larger pianos, 3 men. These numbers would change if the move is particularly difficult at the delivery end due to stairs or such. Your remark elsewhere "ask these movers how many pianos they have dropped", implies a broad level of knowledge about swivel casters that you don't have. You presume your own experience or prejudice on others. Having seen a thousand? Moves or more, they've never dropped anything on me. I believe that if you were to watch my movers do a few moves, you would be impressed with their skill and knowledge as well as their efficiency. That said, and having read your remarks and those of Jon Page and others about your safe use of a fixed wheel dolly, I will yield to this body of experience with fixed wheel dollies and stand corrected about their safe use by movers. I have presumed my own experience and prejudice on others here and I acknowledge that. It is certainly fair to say that a mover can do a bad move using either kind of dolly. Proper technique will differ for the safe use of each. But saying that a mover can do an unsafe move with a swivel dolly is not the same thing as saying that swivel dollies are inherently unsafe, which is what you and some others seem to be saying here. Is a table saw inherently unsafe? No, it isn't. It is a safe tool when known and proper techniques are used. Ditto for the swivel dolly. And that proper technique is used safely day in and day out by skilled movers with swivel dollies - indeed, by the majority of professional piano movers. That's just simply true. If the grand piano is on a skid board that is tightly strapped to the dolly, and both are tightly strapped to the wall of the truck, what is unsafe about a properly secured piano on a dolly? If the truck is on an incline or side angle, those angles may exist on the walk the mover has to go down with the piano on the dolly. I'm not arguing against your method of moving, I recognize that you can do a safe move in this manner if you so choose. But that is equally true for the swivel dolly strapped to the wall. It's a function of proper technique used by trained professionals. Always. Will -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Ilvedson Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 11:40 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] How NOT to move a grand piano Your missing my point and I don't think you ever been on a lift bed with a piano on a dolly...fixed or swivel... '-] Swivel wheels on a lift is asking for trouble. We never left the pianos on dollies in the truck. Slid it on the lift bed and slid it into the truck. You use the lift be to lift the piano to set the dolly and as I said we didn't dead lift from the floor to set the dolly. David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, CA 94044 ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "William Truitt" <surfdog at metrocast.net> To: pianotech at ptg.org Received: 4/10/2010 8:00:12 PM Subject: Re: [pianotech] How NOT to move a grand piano >You are missing my points. A lift bed is flat enough to safely use swivel >wheeled dollies safely and consistently with PROPERLY TRAINED PROFESSIONAL >PIANO MOVERS. It is done safely all the time every day by 99 plus percent >of all professional piano movers - who do not need the perceived security of >a straight wheeled dolly, who manage the instability easily with proper >technique. In fact, they often do this when the truck is sitting a little >sidehill and/or downhill too. I've watched my movers do it this way for >years, presenting no problems to them. A properly set dolly will be >balanced with either kind of dolly. I think what you mean is leverage. >We should not mistake the sense of security that occasional piano technician >movers might feel they need for the safest and best (or only) method for >professional piano movers to use. >We can debate the kind of dolly to use, but I also detailed other examples >of improper use of equipment that indicate that these guys were fully >knowledgeable about the right tools and good technique. >Will >-----Original Message----- >From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf >Of David Ilvedson >Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 9:10 PM >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Subject: Re: [pianotech] How NOT to move a grand piano >A properly set dolly offers little trouble turning a piano. It's called >balance. Swivel wheeled dolly not only can go back forth but what ti go >right or left depending gravity. A lift bed is rarely flat. >David Ilvedson >Pacifica, CA >On Apr 10, 2010, at 5:15 PM, "William Truitt" <surfdog at metrocast.net> wrote: >" Non-caster wheels offer more stability on an diagonal incline >and offer a more secure transit in general." >Please support your conclusion that non-caster wheels (straight line wheels) >offer a more secure transit in general (than a pivoting wheel such as seen >on a piano dolly) >If you do not want to veer off a straight line, yes it would be more stable >- it will resist moving in any other direction than the direction the wheels >are aiming. However, in order to execute a turn, you must lift two wheels >off the ground and then frictionally force the remaining two to pivot. Not >easy with 12 to 1400 lbs bearing on those small surfaces. Why would you >want to lift more than you have to, when you simply can easily pivot the >piano on all four wheels of the piano dolly, and in tight spaces too? >That's what they are designed to do. You don't have to lift one end of >this beast to rotate the piano on the board end with a piano dolly, you >simply rotate the piano in the direction desired by movers pushing at each >end, being sure to keep the piano stable by holding the piano high and >moving it from there. Yes, there is an inherent instability to a piano >dolly when on a slight incline, the wheels will want to straighten to follow >the path of least resistance and roll downhill. But that is what proper >moving techniques are for to compensate for that, and what professional >piano movers use all the time to move quickly and safely. And the lift gates >do not angle much, or at all. >Where is the diagonal incline you are talking about in the pictures? >In the context of all the movements required to roll the piano out onto the >gate and pivot it until the piano is perpendicular to the truck, the fact >that the wheels were not casters has everything to do with this not being a >safe move (in totality). >I have never met a full time professional piano mover who used anything >other than a pivot wheel piano dolly. That's a lot of movers I've seen. >Will >-----Original Message----- >From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf >Of Jon Page >Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 5:13 PM >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Subject: Re: [pianotech] How NOT to move a grand piano >Seems to me that they got in trouble by not rotating the piano >perpendicular to the truck on the raised lift gate prior to lowering. >They and ended up with it propped between the truck bed and gate. >They needed to rotate the piano on the board end and that's >probably when things got out of hand. >The fact that the wheels were not casters has no bearing on it. >Non-caster wheels offer more stability on an diagonal incline >and offer a more secure transit in general. >-- >Regards, >Jon Page
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