I don't question that these parts are more consistent in their flex response or strength or however it's measured than wood and can see how that may very well make for more consistent tonal response from note to note. The sound comment I was responding to was something quite different. I'm not crazy about using a CA type glue with a porous materials like wood and do have some concerns about gluing wood to plastic and how that joint will hold up over time. But in principle I have no objection to the idea of carbon fiber being used for shanks or other action parts. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Mark S Burgett Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 3:34 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Chickering Grand Hammer Flanges? David, The fact is that the carbon fiber shank, that we use, is very consistent in strength which means much easier voicing of the hammers. Many people think that it is only the hammers that are inconsistent when voicing but in actuality the strength of the wooden shank also affects the sound that is produced. We have done some very thorough deflection testing of the wooden shank and we have found a range of .300" difference from the strongest to the weakest wood shank. This variation of strength will produce a different volume and quality of sound due to the strike point. We use the CA Gel glue for hammers and the hammers can be removed very easily without using heat. I have demonstrated this in many classes. On a previous comment from Joe about the "throw away" action parts, this is not true as our parts will outlast wood for one and the material is recyclable. Plus we are helping the environment by not cutting down trees to make action parts. Mark _____ From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 8:01 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Chickering Grand Hammer Flanges? Except that the "sound" doesn't ever travel through the "plastic". I mean, it travels from the string to the soundboard. It never gets to the shank in any meaningful way. The flexibility of the shank can impact the manner in which the hammer strikes the string which can have an effect on the tone but then it seems that the material is only relevant to the extent that it influences that flex response. Though I have not used them other than for a trial I've heard good things about them in terms of performance once you get everything on and aligned and, I suppose, don't have to take the hammers off-not sure what happens there. I don't have any particular bias just because they're not wood. They probably have a more uniform response through the set than wood being that the process of making them is much more controlled. The jury is still out for me owing mainly to lack of experience. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Piano Boutique Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 6:53 PM To: joegarrett at earthlink.net; pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Chickering Grand Hammer Flanges? Joe, I think that sound travels threw plastic, differently than it does threw wood. I also think that the feel of playing aluminum is different than wood. Have you ever heard a definite thunk when playing a Yamaha grand. there is a metal support under the key bed that produces the sound. I don't like it and in fact, I like the absents of sound when playing a Steinway with a wood plank. As you would say: thank you very much. Willy ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Garrett <mailto:joegarrett at earthlink.net> To: Mark S Burgett <mailto:markb at pianodisc.com> ; pianotech <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [pianotech] Chickering Grand Hammer Flanges? Mark, Yes, I have played two M& Hs, in a side by side test, at Classic Piano, in Portland. I definately did not like the feel of the Plastic. Also, I did not like the tone produced. It must just be me.<G> (Or...it could just have been those two pianos) I'm a wood worker. It's what I do. Plastic parts, no matter how well crafted, do not appeal to me. I happen to like the sound of pianos with wood parts. I do not like pianos with aluminum rails and/or plastic parts. That includes the difference between the new Kawaii s and the old ones. Two different entities! Truly not intended to be insulting or anything. I applaud the effort you have made in this regard. It is needed, I suppose, for those that like to change the basic character of the instruments they work onyour stuff is just the ticket. It's not to say that that's a bad thing, it's just not my thing. I try to bring out the intention of the designer of the piano, in my rebuilds. Your parts do not do that, IMO.<G> I perceive that over the past 40 years, pianos have transitioned into a harsh unmusical entity. I believe it is an evolutionary process that is prompted from modern ears becoming deaf at earlier years. Also, it is a never ending process to try and get more out of a given piano. Some of the Tonal Perception is due to the poor EQing of modern recordings of pianos. The fact is that pianos will only produce so much of a decible level and that it has reached that! Any further attempt is simply producing more "noise" IMO. Granted, wooden action problems have their problems. I know how to work with them. Plastic is not a repairable product. It is a "replaceable' product. All goes along with our "throw away/disposable" societal mindset. Regards, Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark S Burgett <mailto:markb at pianodisc.com> To: joegarrett at earthlink.net;pianotech at ptg.org Sent: 7/26/2011 3:23:34 PM Subject: RE: [pianotech] Chickering Grand Hammer Flanges? Hi Joe, I guess you haven't played a piano with the WNG action parts. They actually sound, play better and the pianist has more control that the wooden action parts. Anyway, I wanted to share some pictures from Randy Mangus that rebuilt a Chickering with our parts with some creativity. We didn't have the correct Rep. flange then but will soon in our stock. Mark _____ From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Garrett Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 1:21 PM To: J Patrick Draine; pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Chickering Grand Hammer Flanges? Patrick, Not no, H%$# NO!<G> First of all, I've redesigned many actions for Chickerings Using Pratt Read and Renner parts. There are ways of putting a new action in a piano. Plastic, IMSO, is not it. It's too stiff and clunky for my likes. But, thanks for the suggestion.<G> I have all of the W.N.& G. action parts kit. I've done the numbers, etc.Just didn't add up for this olde duffer.<G> My point to this exercise is to see if I can save the customer some big bucks and have the piano play as it was originally designed. (which I consider to be correct for the instrument, as this is a pre-Aeolian thang.<G>) Regards, Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: J Patrick Draine <mailto:jpdraine at gmail.com> To: joegarrett at earthlink.net;pianotech at ptg.org Sent: 7/26/2011 8:44:30 AM Subject: Re: [pianotech] Chickering Grand Hammer Flanges? Joe, I don't have answers to your annealing question but you might consider calling Jude Reveley for information on how he redesigned a couple Chickering actions: WN&G action rail, WN&G action parts, back action, and a new and redesigned keyboard. Probably more than you were planning on, but perhaps worth considering. If it's the same model Jude has done all the design work on maybe you could work out a deal . . . Patrick Draine Jude's neighbor, here in cool Billerica On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 1:04 AM, Joseph Garrett <joegarrett at earthlink.net> wrote: Anyone have an idea the difference of expansion rates of Steel and Brass. I'm into a Chickering Grand and am planning on trying to anneal them puppies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/20110727/2fba6458/attachment.htm>
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