[pianotech] unsubscribe

[Ryan Sowers]

Mr. SkolniK (sorry about the earlier misspelling!),

Interesting post. I'll chew on that for a while!

Ryan

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:33 AM, David Skolnik
<davidskolnik at optonline.net>wrote:

>  David Skolnick said:
>
>
>
> Ryan -
> First, and most importantly,  it's "nik" not "nick".
>
> Next,  as I mentioned in the unrelated private post, I was not intending
> to chastise you with any more severity than Horace did.  We see how much
> trouble that caused for him.  I disagree with nothing you say below, for
> the most part, though I'm not sure it's fair to attribute Jim B's decision
> to unsubscribe completely to the list issues.  There has been quite a bit
> posted recently saying that the list was NOT being shut down immediately,
> and, in fact, Jim hasn't posted (except for once, earlier this year) since
> early 2008, so we must remember to be careful with our interpretation of
> data.
>
> With regard to political speech, I agree that it is difficult to discern
> exactly where the line is, but it's important to remember that it does
> exist, to wit: it's one thing to criticize, *strongly,* the decisions and
> actions taken by the administrators (the committee, the Board, the Home
> Office) *AS* administrators of the list while, at the same time, keeping
> separate their functions as officers and administrators of PTG.   Think of
> it this way, perhaps.  Assuming that the basic infrastructure of this mail
> list were still viable, what would prevent us from finding an alternate
> host?  The cost?  Rights to the name "Pianotech"?  Redundancy with my.ptg
> lists?
>
> Also, if the inadequacies (in some peoples opinion) of the current
> offering were actually remedied, would the continued existence of the two
> "pianotech"s make sense?  Is there something fundamentally different in the
> originating mission of the two that is not easily resolved?  Open
> membership as opposed to membership closely tied to PTG interaction?  RonN
> made the same point, way back, on Dec. 31st.
>
> As I said, there IS no dedicated list that this readership can redirect to
> in order to discuss self-referential aspects of the list's functioning.  It
> all has to happen here, in one big room.  (Sounds like a caucus).  The
> self-perpetuating irony, as you've seen, is that, in order to engage in
> such discussion, we seem to be herded to the website, and, even there, need
> to make the distinction between what is "User Help Group", and what goes to
> "PTG-L".  For example, in your earlier post, where you said:
>
> I think the problem is this Board of Directors is too emotionally invested
> in the new and improved product because they have spent so much time,
> energy, and (our)$$ on it.  The only hope would be to elect a new board who
> isn't so invested in it.
>
>
> The first sentence would be at home on the User Help list.  The second
> belonged on PTG-L.  It may seem absurd, but one way of unmasking it as such
> is to follow it through to the extreme.  Send a different version to each
> of the relevant lists.  Is someone on "Users" going to say, "No, we have
> nothing to do with the old Pianotech?  Not likely, but, if so, who does?
> As far as anything going to PTG-L, the question( would be the boundaries of
> discourse, even there, and how much representation this list has there.
>
> This list can't just become defined by our reluctance to adapt (no, I'm
> not talking about LC*) or about what a terrible person Duaine is. (Maybe
> there would be a separate list on the website for that).   The question is,
> are the administrators of this list as responsible to any question raised
> by Duaine (as a non-PTG'er) as they might be to me (as soon as I pay my
> dues)?  Is there less of a sense of responsibility, as list administrators,
> to this list than the one on the web?
>
> Clearly, I'll do anything to avoid honest work.
>
> Keep celebrating -
> David Skolnik
> Hastings on Hudson, NY
> *(Learning Curve)
>
>
>
>
>
> At 12:37 PM 1/3/2012, you wrote:
>
> David Skolnick said: "The rub, so to speak, is the indistinctness of the
> line between what is list business and what is PTG business.  This
> obfuscation is not new...we have engaged in it for years, and we continue
> to do so.   This thread was walking the line until, I regret to say, Ryan
> stepped unmistakably over it in expressing opinions that related
> specifically to the politics of the organization."
>
> This thread was began with  yet another contributor leaving the list
> because they are completely unsatisfied with the very large change that was
> dropped like a bomb on the list users last year, without any real notice,
> feedback, or involvement from the heavy users. That was a political
> decision that had some strong reprucussions for many in the list community
> - and the large drop off in participation that followed proved this.
>
> Mentioning anything relating to  PTG politics on a non-PTG-L list seems to
> be taboo. However, this list, if it survives, will only do so if there is a
> certain amount of political will exerted. This thread is about the survival
> of this list - which is ultimately a political decision. Just because there
> is a dedicated political list, it doesn't follow that any and all relevant
> political opinions in regards to a thread topic are counter-productive.
>
> Ryan
>
>
>


-- 
Ryan Sowers, RPT
Puget Sound Chapter
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
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