[pianotech] Soundboard problem?

[Claude Harding]

Roger & Terry,

(I am reposting Terry's response, along with Roger's, because Terry's did
not post to the list.)

  Thanks so much for taking time to respond to my posting, and for the wise
words of counsel and caution.

I have done a moderate amount of rebuilding down through the years,
including pinblocks and bridge work, but all of it

has been on pianos where the soundboard was not a problem.  I am thinking I
have run into my first such issue.  

  The poor condition of the strings and hammers make tonal evaluation a
challenge, but the tenor and treble seem adequate in both

volume and sustain.  The bass is much weaker in both ways.  Checking bridges
and ribs for resonance and decay time with a tuning fork 

gives what seems to me to be acceptable results.  

  The poor tone in the bass could be caused by the old strings or a bridge
problem.  What I can see of the bass bridge looks solid, but the

apron/riser & riser/soundboard glue joints are hidden under the plate.  I am
hesitant to tear things down for further inspection, because if a 

soundboard replacement is needed and the customer wants it, I will have to
job that out or send the entire project to another shop.  I want to 

learn to do soundboard work, but I think my first project needs to be on an
old Wurlitzer I have rather than a customer's piano.

   The piano is a family "heirloom," being fixed up to be passed on to a
daughter, so her 5 year old can begin lessons.  I think I need to get the
piano 

owner in my shop, discuss the entire situation with her, then proceed with
caution.

   Thanks again for the helpful responses. I'm certain that they have also
been of benefit to those on the list, and my musings may have at least 

provided some entertainment.

Best regards,

Claude Harding

    

 

  _____  

From: Terry Farrell [mailto:mfarrel2 at tampabay.rr.com] 
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 5:45 AM
To: charding88 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Soundboard problem?

 

Hello Claude,

 

I am responding directly to you (not on Pianotech) because I can't post to
the list (technical glitch I guess). If you'd like to post this to the
Pianotech list, please do so.

 

I agree with what Roger has stated - good advice. I would go some further
though. What you have done is to gather some good info. You at least know
for sure that the board is distorted at the low bass end. Okay, that's
great. But what of it?

 

I would start with answering two big-picture questions: First is how does
the piano sound? Is there a killer octave area? How is overall volume and
sustain (in bass, trying to take into consideration the condition of the
strings themselves)? The second question you need to address is exactly what
level of performance is the owner looking for - i.e. what is the finished
product objective in rebuilding/refurbishing/remanufacturing the piano? As
an extreme example, if the owner doesn't play well (beginner), and has in
the past been very happy with the sound of her/his worn-out 1948 Gulbranson
spinet - but simply wants a grand piano in the living room, it may not
matter much the condition of the soundboard. However, at the other end of
the scale, the family pianist is advanced, has a good ear, and knows what a
very nice piano sounds like and wants this piano to sound as good as it can
- I can tell you right off without even seeing the piano that the only way
this piano will ever reach its highest level of performance is with a new,
redesigned soundboard and string scale.

 

Then, if you determine that the soundboard is lacking somehow AND the owner
wants it to sound better, then start using your numbers to confirm your
suspicions.

 

AND, IMHO, if the owner simply wants a nice sounding little grand piano,
once you start adding up the cost of a new action, soundboard, etc., etc., I
think it is always appropriate to cover the option of replacing the piano
with a good late-model used piano - that is often a cost-effective route for
people. However, if they really want THIS piano (family heirloom, etc.), OR
if they really want a 5-foot grand that sounds better than any new 5-foot
grand, then by all means go for the Full Monty!

 

I hope this helps some....

 

Terry Farrell

 

 

On Dec 30, 2011, at 12:30 AM, Roger at Integra.net wrote:





 

 

 

 

Claude,

Your clinical analysts of the soundboard suggest you may be relying too much
on correcting downbearing to exact your expectations. Certainly downbearing
is an important ingredient, but ignoring other soundboard principles may
point to a limited and possibly disappointing outcome. Your letter makes
little mention of the overall tonal characteristics of the soundboard.
Experienced technicians will listen to the overall quality of tone to
indicate if there is a potential problem with crown and other factors.

One of the principle ingredients of the piano sound is created by the
tension between the ribs and the soundboard panels - which manifests itself
through crown. Your description suggests this may be lacking. If so, all the
kings horses and all the kings men will not restore this piano to the
potential, commensurate to the money your customer will be paying for
restoration.

Use extreme caution, lest you damage your reputation.

Roger Gable

P.S. Your suggestion to add material to the bridge to correct downbearing
will likely gain you nothing but increased downbearing without any (or
possibly negative) tonal benefits.

 

 

Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 6:06 PM

To: pianotech at ptg.org

Subject: [pianotech] Soundboard problem?

 

 

 

  I have a 1925 Lyon & Healy (5 ft.) grand in the shop.  I have done a
preliminary estimate on restringing, new hammers, action reconditioning,
etc., but I do not yet have a signed contract with the specifics spelled
out.

  I have been doing some closer inspection of the piano, have concerns about
the

soundboard, and could use some counsel. 

  The strings are still on, and composite downbearing readings (Fowler
guage) from the top note run

.004" - .010" in Treble 2;

.006" - .009" in Treble 1;

.010" - .009" in Tenor.

  These seem minimal, especially in the top treble, and I will check again
after taking off the strings to see how much the board might come up, but
maybe I can work with these, especially since I may have to recap the top
end of the treble bridge anyway.

 

  The bass is the main problem.

Top note (28) reads .010".  (That's okay.)

Middle of bridge is .006", and it ranges .004" - .007" through note 4.

THEN, #3 is .000", #2 is -.001", and #1 is -.003".

 

Inspecting board underneath shows all glue joints solid and at least minimal
crown except for the low end of the bass bridge.   A straight edge will rock
at that point directly beside the lowest soundboard button for the bass
bridge apron, although there is clearance and "crown" on either side of that
spot.

   Tone in bass is not strong; bass bridge is offset construction; clearance
between plate and soundboard at plate screw/post locations is minimal
(1/8").

Perhaps I could re-cap the bass bridge to correct downbearing.  Could I save
this board, and should I even try.  My preliminary estimate did not mention
replacing the soundboard and was based on a home inspection in a crowded
room where getting under the piano was difficult (That's my best excuse.
:-))

  Counsel welcomed.  Criticism accepted.

Thanks.

Claude Harding

 

 

 

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