This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Hello, So many good questions and comments on this threads I don't see what I can add. I have made some research to understand why some felt was sold to us to be "carbonized" while other does not advertise on that. In fact in the old times, since 1860 or so, there was only machines to clean the wool from the thistle and vegetal residues (it was even hand cleaned, by prisoners, was said, before 1860 and the apparition of "the leviathan" a machine developed by Mr. De Laoureux de Serviers, who lived in SERVIERS, in Belgium, and this town was the "only" European place for wool washing and preparation before making cloth or felt with it (till other places appear near Hamburg in the 1910 ) The wool yet came from south America, England and other countries as well. Then around 1880 a chemical process including the use of acid (liquid or vapor) was used to 'carbonize' the vegetal in the wool. The process gives a brown color to the wool and then it have to be bleached (with bleach) to get white again (while may be it can be leaved without bleaching, as find in some traditional felt cloths. With a goggle research I have find the declarative papers from the French "water agency", that our actual wool washers (in washing columns) are using, as the process is using a lot of water, that is contamined then with dye and other products and may be recycled or treated. I asked at the Wurzen factory and had a talk with someone who was kind enough to tell me that those days all the wool is carbonized to get rid of vegetal, that is the usual process. Then some wools are a little yellow, and other are bleached to death (like the Laoureux hammer felt which is very white). I don't know but I suspect the lanolin staying within the fiber differ depending of the strength of these processes. My question was because I noticed that the white Laoureux felt is making a scratch noise under the needle even if the elasticity is poor, so I wandered if the bleaching process had something to do with that. I've read also a comment from Topper Piano that German hammers are sometime impregnated with some lacquer, this has not been my experience, but maybe the heat used (and more if some vapor have been used, which turn the hammer in stone) while pressing leave us with a felt that give that impression (particularly with VFG felt it can be noticed). I was also said that any color or additive added to the felt was counterproductive in terms of resiliency/elasticity. Another question : the Piano felts are not treated against moths (generally) and can be attacked , particularly the softer ones, so we should have some Cedar or anti moth paper in the boxes where we keep our parts. If you have find brownish pieces in the old felts that certainly mean they where not carbonized, or not bleached. I'll ask that question also to the Wurzen people, about the action of lanolin in keeping the fiber springiness, but I guess too much lanolin goes against the felting density (fulling). I am happy to see that the effort from that felt maker to give us a very good product are appreciated, and I have them know about it. We need enthusiasts here, before its too late ! Friendly wishes to all Isaac OLEG -----Message d'origine----- De : pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]De la part de antares Envoyé : mardi 18 mai 2004 22:39 À : Phillip Ford; Pianotech Objet : Alfred Dolge would smile upon us Hello Phillip, I was in the Wurzen factory and I have seen (roughly speaking) how the felt is made. It starts with a heap of selected wools mixed together. This wool goes into a 'carding machine' where layers of hair are produced. These layers of hair are actually the layers in the felted hammers we later buy. The layers of hair are put on top of each other until they form a certain thickness and pieces of these layered wools are put into a fulling machine where they undergo the process of fulling. This process of fulling is where the fibers of the wool hairs are being "interlocked". They thus form the real first mass of felt as this process is combined with heat and water and shaking. The secret of the Wurzen factory is that they control this fulling process to the max and that is why we now have such a high quality felt (again). If you look at the latest Wurzen AAA quality felt you will notice a higher density of the fibers. Yes, you can actually see it. But most of all, you can actually hear it. The tone is one if totally natural elasticity without any use of chemicals (as Dale Erwin too described the other day). The art of getting out the desired colors is the art of voicing. The Wurzen felt offers, so far, the most interesting palette of colors and, as we all know, this felt is for sale in America at Ronsen hammers (Ray Negron). We are now faced with two problems : we want the hammer maker to make a perfect hammer with this new felt (not an easy task). We need to learn again to work with this wonderful felt. As Dale said it : we should actually only dope these hammers to accentuate some percussiveness, not to "totally fill the tub and throw the babies in". This is an interesting period where we are again offered felt made with great craftsmanship and artistry. Alfred Dolge would smile upon us but he is probably busy with other things André Oorebeek On 18-mei-04, at 22:07, Phillip Ford wrote: To all Hammer Heads In the previous thread I was trying to convey the way I see that a hammer is made & if you followed that then you see that I have a definition of tensioned felt in mind. However what I failed to articulate clearly is that Tension & compression go hand in hand in the hammer pressing process. As I stated, & piano hammer makers can tell you, that too much tension can be achieved during pressing in the outer layers of felt and it can & will rip open in the crown. This is the elastic limit of the felt. As the stretching of the felt on the outer perimeter happens the inner parts of the felt are compressing. It has too because of the stretching of the outer felt, the triangular shape the felt strip is cut & the hammer press pressure itself. ... Regards Dale Erwin And in a previous post I was trying to convey the idea that the makeup of the felt itself is important, and that perhaps the makeup of the felt that is available now is different from what it was in the good American hammers of the past. The old hammers look and feel different than new hammers. It's hard to know how much of this is different felt and how much is just age. Also, as TP pointed out, if you file these hammers you'll often find embedded dirt and junk in the felt. Stick a needle in one, and you'll sense that it feels different to the needle than a new hammer would. You can push the needle in without much effort, and I have the sense that the felt isn't really very dense. The felt seems to feel a little 'grittier' for lack of a better term. And they respond dramatically to even a single needle stitch. Also, you'll hear people referring to layers in hammer felt when talking about new hammers. My experience is that new hammers don't really have them. I haven't tried the new Wurzen felt hammers yet, but I have tried the slightly older Wurzen felt hammers(such is used on Hamburg Steinway I believe), and while the impression of layering is more noticeable with these hammers, it's nothing like it was in the old hammers. There really were layers, or at least they behaved as if there were layers. You could peel one of those hammers like a grape, if you were so inclined. This is all to say that I'm not sure any felt available now is like the felt they were using a few decades ago, for better or worse, and what I'm hearing here is that many people think it's for the worse. The discussion seems to concentrate on how hammers are made: hot or cold pressed, lots of pressure or not, glue at the tip of the molding or not, etc. There doesn't seem to be much discussion of the makeup of the felt itself, other than is it Wurzen or not. I get the impression that people think that sheep are sheep and felt is felt (the way that most people think apples are apples - if you asked most people how many varieties of apples exist, they would say two; red delicious and granny smith. They would be astonished to learn that there are hundreds of varieties of apples - we don't see any of them because of the nature of business in this country, not because of the nature of apples). There are many breeds of sheep. They produce wool of different colors, fiber length, fiber strength, and felting ability. Also, sheep are not the only animals that produce feltable fibers. Camels, goats, and llamas, among others also produce feltable fibers with properties different from those of sheep wool fibers. There's nothing to prevent these various fibers from being blended with one another (I believe I heard Ari Isaac once mention that he wanted to try making some hammers with felt that had some mohair in the blend). I believe that the length and quality of the fibers depends on where on the animal the wool comes from. I think the best wool is from the chest area (but don't quote me on that). I can also imagine that the quality of the wool from a given breed of sheep could be dependent on its sex, its diet, and its environment. The wool from a male merino sheep eating grass in the north of Scotland is probably going to be different from that of a female merino sheep eating soybeans in California. So, there are many choices available when making a selection of fibers to be felted. After you choose your fibers you have to card them, clean them, and perhaps bleach them. I don't know much about these processes, but I would imagine that agressive or excessive carding could break down long fibers, that excessive washing or washing with agressive soaps could strip desirable substances off the fibers, and that bleaching could affect the properties of the fibers (although all of these processes, agressively done, would probably make the felt look nice and clean). So, more choices to make about how to treat your raw materials. Now you have your processed fibers and need to felt them. I'm not clear on how they do this, but pressure, rolling, and perhaps heat are involved. Once again, choices about how much pressure, how much rolling and turning, and whether to use heat and how much. So, there are many choices to make in each step of the process. Each of these choices will affect the properties of the final product. Unfortunately for us, I think that the felt properties that would make the best piano hammers are not the felt properties that most industrial customers are looking for. Wool that will make a good machine tool vibration isolation pad isn't necessarily the same wool that will make a good piano hammer. And piano hammers make up a tiny percentage of the felt market. When I was at the Steinway factory I saw stacks of felt for hammers. It looked like a lot of felt to me, but was apparently insignificant to the supplier. I was told that basically Steinway has to choose one of the suppliers standard felts because the amount of felt they buy is a miniscule percentage of that makers output, and that the maker wouldn't be bothered to make felt to their specifications for what he considers such a tiny quantity. So, if we're getting hammers with dense felt without much tension and compression in them, then that may be because the hammer maker is working with the only materials available to him. If a hammer having lots of tension and compression built into it by the pressing is what gives a superior performing hammer, then you have to have felt that is capable of standing up to that process. The outer fibers have to be able to stand the tension. So, your felt has to be made up of fibers of the requisite length and strength to achieve this tensile strength. How the density of the felt would affect the pressing process is unclear to me. But it seems possible to me that very dense felt might have a different neutral bending axis, so to speak, as it's being bent over the tip of the molding, which results in less tension on the outer fibers when the hammer is pressed. This would be a desirable thing if you're using felt without much tensile strength - perhaps another reason for using high density felt. But if this supposition is correct, then to achieve high tension in the outer fibers when pressing the hammer, you might have to use lower density felt. To make an old style hammer I think maybe you want wool with long fibers that hasn't been manipulated too much and not pressed too hard. To get the best felt for this purpose, let's imagine that you need chest wool of a Lincoln sheep raised in a cold climate, not carded or washed too much, not bleached, blended with some mohair, and felted to a low density. Can you imagine anyone in the world being willing or able to supply such a thing in 2004? Forget it. In 1904, probably. But we've made 100 years of 'progress' since then. Phil Phillip Ford Piano Service and Restoration San Francisco, CA _______________________________________________ pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives friendly greetings from André Oorebeek Amsterdam - The Netherlands 0031-20-6237357 0645-492389 0031-75-6226878 www.concertpianoservice.nl www.grandpiano.nl "where music is, no harm can be" ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/0d/5d/55/09/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
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